[Anonymous]

frank4cars;14803 wrote:

You, my friend, have a lot of living to do yet if that is really true, but you do make some interesting points. I’m not sure where you got some of your impressions about my views, but I’ll say it again, I prefer a diverse show too. I know a lot of the older guys can’t stand the newer cars or the kids that drive them. I also know that a lot of the younger people that come to the show don’t appreciate the older cars or their drivers all the time. Regardless, I also know that the problems the show is experiencing are coming from the car clubs and forums that are bringing large groups of mostly late-model cars. The two people responsible for this show and the Cars and Coffee concept are asking that changes be made so the show gets back to its roots. They are asking that if you drive a post-’78 vehicle to Cars and Coffee, you park it in the spectator lot. The show lot will be reserved for interesting pre-’78 vehicles. It might offend you that this simple meet is being discussed in such a way, but these are the rules that have had to be implemented as a result of recent events culminating in today’s show of S2000s and other late-model cars that took up way too much real estate. Those groups were told not to show up but decided to anyway. Do you think they deserve to come back? Do you really think anybody will miss them if they decide not to return? I have a friend with one of the nicest S2000s in the country and I love his car almost as much as he does. He parked his in the spectator lot today because he was ashamed of what the other owners did. Discrimination is a big word and the suggestion of racism is borderline defamatory, but again, it is their show and they can allow or disallow whomever they please. This is not a public meeting place, it is private property being offered for our use through no small sacrifice on the part of two of the company’s employees. This is not a democracy. That might sound harsh, but that’s the message.

Just so we are straight I have no impressions about your views I just tell it like it is. You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else.
I have lived long enough to know BS when I see it! and that is that! Just like you had no problem walking up to us and have us move around to accomodate some people you should have done the same thing to the s2000 guys. Period! You are right they can make all the rules and do what they want to do within “their” property I never argued that. It is all BS and what you don’t understand is that a bunch of old timers went over your head and complained rather than letting you work it out. Whether you like it or not you allowed these groups of people to come in and enjoy by the masses and it got bigger and bigger now all of the sudden it is a problem because few folks complained. I, like yourself am very seasoned in the car world, show circuit etc. and can tell you that it always ends up being a few bad apples to make everything go awry! Seen it too many times! So you have to enforce new rules now??? Go right ahead! I just want to see the person that has walk up to 80 year old Ed (who happens to be a really great guy!) and tell him that he has to park over in the aux lot because he decided to show up with a post 78 vehicle. That man gets there every week without fail at 0430 and waits on everyone. I think it is a shame that you are going to have to put him outfrom time to time Let alone everything else that is getting ready to happen.

Dafaming you??? not at all but it is what it is…as the young people put it.

Oh and BTW just so you know this is all over the other forums now and people are really pissed. I even ran across a thread where they are planning to show up and ignore you and just go and park so if I were you I would have the police there next week.

Is it a shame??? yes it is…but that is what is going on out there!

Now you are really bringing the children that you didn’t want to deal with out of the wood works! Good Job Ford!

Any of you porsche, ferarri, lambo guys or late model cars out there willing to meet somewhere else please post it up we know where you are going to meet at.

thx.

[Anonymous]

I think people are a bit over reacting at this point. The fact of the matter is, I think the s2k guys weren’t aware of what was appropriate, in terms of the parking situation. In the general car community, people love traveling in hordes, with the same vehicle. Therefore this isn’t news to me. Now that word’s out that hording is discouraged in the display area, people will at least be aware that it’s discouraged. Also, why do people have to show up early and hog up all the space? I rolled little past 9 with a few friends and comfortably found numerous spots way in the back corner. There were still plenty of cars, spectators and parking.

[Anonymous]

@threepointo 14807 wrote:

Just so we are straight I have no impressions about your views I just tell it like it is. You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else.
I have lived long enough to know BS when I see it! and that is that! Just like you had no problem walking up to us and have us move around to accomodate some people…

Wasn’t me that asked anyone to move, and this is one of your misperceptions I was talking about. Not sure why the S2000 guys moved if they felt they had the right to park there. Not sure why you are using quotes around “their” when you mention the Ford/Mazda parking lot either. I do not work for Ford, I am just a long-time showgoer who has talked to John and Freeman about the show since before it was brought here. I am also very active in the worldwide car community. I know that the hundreds of “old timers” who come every week have been complaining about this sort of group onslaught for a while now. Saturday was a particularly bad day for complaints and the volunteers working the show were extremely disappointed by the actions of those groups. They decided to make some changes.

The “few bad apples,” as you put it, are who I am addressing here because nobody from this forum seems to be spreading the word about what is and isn’t appropriate at this show. A simple sticky at the top of the section could contain all of the rules about the show but for some reason there isn’t one. This thread is the closest thing to that. I’m not sure why the site’s admins aren’t supporting the show better. I’ve heard outrageous claims that Josh and Brent want this show to fail so they can start their own show and have a truly legitimate claim to the Cars and Coffee name. That allowing this kind of arguing will convince people that this show isn’t worth attending anymore. That planting seeds of discontent will split the show open.

I think that is nonsense because the show will continue so long as Freeman and John want it to, whatever shape it takes. I know Max and Cliff, among others, have had trouble getting these same messages across on this forum so maybe it’s important to reiterate it and show some of the other forum members that it isn’t just them that feels this way about the show. I like that there is debate here and that some of you are so passionate about the show, however, you are railing against the wrong person.

Start talking to the people who behaved so badly that it forced the organizers to make changes. It’s as if people here are blaming the organizers for being disrespected by these groups. Rather than support the people who allow the show to happen, you are getting behind the groups that caused the trouble. That is the shameful part of this, and that is why you epically fail.

If you think “Ed” won’t want to come to this new-old kind of show in the future, tell him about it now and let the old man sleep in or go to Donut Derelicts or something instead. I think there are dozens of great shows around SoCal each and every week. Of course, he is more than welcome to keep coming to Cars and Coffee as well, just like everyone else. If anyone here feels like they are being told not to come back to the show in the future, chances are you consider yourself part of the problem groups. That is good. At least you are recognizing where the true fault lies.

It might seem discriminatory, but implying that it is like the days of segregation and racism at its worst is really insulting to the people who put on the show, and that is shameful as well. It is important that this news spreads across all of the forums so thank you for helping with that. Police will probably be there next week just like this week. It’s unfortunate that someone would need to go to that extreme, but two guys and a lady standing by some cones can’t do it all on their own.

Cars and Coffee has been the party that everyone loved to go to. A few gatecrashers heard about it and turned it into a rave. They spread the word and tons of uninvited guests showed up. Those newer guests pissed on the carpet and are now no longer welcome at the party, plain and simple. It doesn’t have anything to do with age or car make or model, it has to do with attitude. Unfortunately, some of those things overlap in a most unfortunate way.

[pladmin]

frank4cars;14818 wrote:

Wasn’t me that asked anyone to move, and this is one of your misperceptions I was talking about. Not sure why the S2000 guys moved if they felt they had the right to park there. Not sure why you are using quotes around “their” when you mention the Ford/Mazda parking lot either. I do not work for Ford, I am just a long-time showgoer who has talked to John and Freeman about the show since before it was brought here. I am also very active in the worldwide car community. I know that the hundreds of “old timers” who come every week have been complaining about this sort of group onslaught for a while now. Saturday was a particularly bad day for complaints and the volunteers working the show were extremely disappointed by the actions of those groups. They decided to make some changes.

The “few bad apples,” as you put it, are who I am addressing here because nobody from this forum seems to be spreading the word about what is and isn’t appropriate at this show. A simple sticky at the top of the section could contain all of the rules about the show but for some reason there isn’t one. This thread is the closest thing to that. I’m not sure why the site’s admins aren’t supporting the show better. I’ve heard outrageous claims that Josh and Brent want this show to fail so they can start their own show and have a truly legitimate claim to the Cars and Coffee name. That allowing this kind of arguing will convince people that this show isn’t worth attending anymore. That planting seeds of discontent will split the show open.

I think that is nonsense because the show will continue so long as Freeman and John want it to, whatever shape it takes. I know Max and Cliff, among others, have had trouble getting these same messages across on this forum so maybe it’s important to reiterate it and show some of the other forum members that it isn’t just them that feels this way about the show. I like that there is debate here and that some of you are so passionate about the show, however, you are railing against the wrong person.

Start talking to the people who behaved so badly that it forced the organizers to make changes. It’s as if people here are blaming the organizers for being disrespected by these groups. Rather than support the people who allow the show to happen, you are getting behind the groups that caused the trouble. That is the shameful part of this, and that is why you epically fail.

If you think “Ed” won’t want to come to this new-old kind of show in the future, tell him about it now and let the old man sleep in or go to Donut Derelicts or something instead. I think there are dozens of great shows around SoCal each and every week. Of course, he is more than welcome to keep coming to Cars and Coffee as well, just like everyone else. If anyone here feels like they are being told not to come back to the show in the future, chances are you consider yourself part of the problem groups. That is good. At least you are recognizing where the true fault lies.

It might seem discriminatory, but implying that it is like the days of segregation and racism at its worst is really insulting to the people who put on the show, and that is shameful as well. It is important that this news spreads across all of the forums so thank you for helping with that. Police will probably be there next week just like this week. It’s unfortunate that someone would need to go to that extreme, but two guys and a lady standing by some cones can’t do it all on their own.

Cars and Coffee has been the party that everyone loved to go to. A few gatecrashers heard about it and turned it into a rave. They spread the word and tons of uninvited guests showed up. Those newer guests pissed on the carpet and are now no longer welcome at the party, plain and simple. It doesn’t have anything to do with age or car make or model, it has to do with attitude. Unfortunately, some of those things overlap in a most unfortunate way.

Frank, I agree with you 100%. John and Freeman have our full an complete support and we will do whatever we can to ensure the continued success of Cars and Coffee, no matter what format it is in. I have never railed against the organizers. We spoke at length yesterday about all of these things. We spoke about putting up a sticky with the rules of the show, and like I said we plan to do it but didn’t want to do it without getting the new official rules straight from the horse’s mouth.

I agree that the people who don’t like the new format should find somewhere else to go. Like my house metaphor, its FORD’s house so when you go to someones house you respect their rules and wishes. If you don’t they have every right to say you aren’t welcome anymore. The large unwelcomed groups and people who chose to break the rules have caused the problems and thus the resulting changes to the show.

In regards to the outrageous claim that Josh and I want to start our own show, thats exactly what it is, outrageous. I have never said or thought that we should start our own show. I am not sure who or where you are hearing this from.

So everyone reading this, including Max, Frank, Cliff, please know that we support John and Freeman in whatever decision they make. My earlier comment about no supercars was said out of frustration that the world’s greatest car show has been forced to come to this kind of regulation.

[Anonymous]

Disappointed in finding this topic.

I’ve never been to the SOCAL meet before, only the local Las Vegas meet whenever I can. I go there BECAUSE there is a mix of cars and owners hanging out and having coffee on a Saturday morning. What else would a car enthusiast want to do?

I think if the creators of this event wanted to keep it small and organized with ONLY certain types of vehicles, they wouldn’t have created an online forum and expanded the brand across multiple states.

The C&C > IS A BRAND < now. Before today, I saw the C&C brand as the great gathering of car nuts, ALL WELCOME. Now that brand is tarnished thanks to this topic and the true opinions I see of a few members here.

You might have guessed but I do not own an old car, although I love to see stuff like suicide door Lincolns and Gullwing Mercedes at the local Vegas meet!

I own a Gallardo Spyder, and a Nissan GTR. Funny, my friends laugh because I choose to drive my GTR over my Gallardo to certain places where in their mind it should be reversed. But my GTR is a special vehicle. It’s VIN 0007 in the USA. Its NOT stock, highly massaged and a $150k rolling Nissan. If thats not special I’m not sure what is.

So special, I was invited to display it on the 2nd floor at the Petersen Automotive Museum in LA this weekend (Feb 7th) for a special GTR book signing. The only one invited, the only one displayed.

I have a handful of friends with GTR’s that I was going to invite to meet at the C&C in Irvine that morning, since I’ve never been there and enjoy the Las Vegas meet so much. It was also going to be an opportunity for people who have been asking me to come to C&C Irvine at some point so they can see the car in person. It has been in SEMA, CES, and various videos throughout the internet since August (Google Budez GTR)

In fact, its Facebook page has gained more than 1,000 fans in only a few months…. and this is for a NISSAN! I’m sure there are more than a few people who would like to see this car up close at a local C&C meet!

But from the look of this topic, the Irvine meet doesn’t look very welcoming. I’ll be skipping C&C Irvine and probably won’t bother ever going if this is what it has become. Especially if I have to park $400k worth of cars in some public parking lot because LATE MODEL vehicles are not welcome.

Special props to Solomon here in Vegas for running our local C&C the way he does, without C&C Las Vegas, the cars would be in the garage that morning and nobody would get to enjoy and appreciate them. More importantly, I would not have made friends that I have today, that I would have otherwise not met since they are in car clubs of another make!

[Anonymous]

Max is probably the only person likely to know who I am and I will start by saying that I have never been to C&C (it’s a long way to go for breakfast from England), though I do enjoy seeing the photos each week.

It would appear that what many are missing is the phrase “Special Classic Automobiles”. We don;t have anything on the scale of C&C over here as a regular meet but there are a few annual free events in a similar style. One that I did regularly frequent was Classics On the Common, which takes place one summers evening a year in Harpenden, about 30 miles north of London. This event was organised by the local Lions Club (similar to Rotarians) and rapidly became over run with vehicles which, though clearly cherished by their owners, weren’t what most would describe as special. The result was that a few years ago, there was an age cut off but newer special interest vehicles would be allowed. If you pitched up in a Viper, a Veyron, a Ferrari, a modern Aston or anything else that isn’t run of the mill, they let you on the common. If you swung by in your M3 or M5, then sorry, you can park in the public lot.

This is what I understand by “Special Classic Automobiles”. Things that you would not see everyday at the supermarket or in the high street. So under this caveat, the Ferraris, Veyrons, Spykers (if there are any over there) DB9s and other supercars would get in?

At the end of the day, it’s up to the organisers. I can’t see that they gain anything by letting these events take place. After All, how many of you have bought a new Ford or Mazda as a result of being able to play in their yard? They do however leave themselves open to all manner of grief from the local authorities if things get overcrowded or if idiots misbehave.

[Anonymous]

I always thought it was great that this meets only requirement was being an automotive enthusiast who had a car they were proud of, didn’t matter what it cost. If in the beginning, it was stated that the meet was “only” for limited production, exotic, or classic automobiles (basically anything but Japanese cars) I would have respected that, came maybe once, checked it out, and been done with it. It’s too bad the lines are being drawn now, but I don’t want to hang out with a bunch of elitist jerk-offs who don’t want me there anyway. So, I’m on no-roll status. Have fun patting each other on your wallets.

[Anonymous]

@Josh 14825 wrote:

Like Brent said, we talked about this with many people yesterday, and intend to do it but not without hearing from John or Freeman first. They have our cell phones and emails, yet we haven’t heard anything from them. We have always complied with their requests and intend to do so today and in the future.

Freeman’s statements were added to this thread. I’m sure you will get another reply from him or John soon.

@Josh 14825 wrote:

Now Frank. I thought you were more intellectually honest than this. Why would you possibly incite such a rumor? Regardless of who you heard it from it is NOT TRUE. Brent and I have zero interest in running and managing a show. Do you want to come to my house and look through my email or on my computer for evidence for your little theory? I will save you the trouble, it does not exist… Do you want to talk to ANYBODY that knows us and our plans for our WEBSITE about your supposed rumor?

That was below you Frank. thumbsdown

Josh,

I know that others have mentioned this to me in the past and I wanted to say that I don’t believe it. Even though other people’s threads may have been deleted leading to further speculation, our conversation yesterday made it clear to me that this was NOT your intention. Stating that it is not true, in no uncertain terms, is what I intended to do. It was not MY theory or opinion. I wanted to dispel that rumor. If it was misinterpreted as MY opinion, I apologize.

[Anonymous]

So it should be something closer to:

“Cars and Coffee™ is a weekly Saturday morning gathering in Irvine, California where hundreds of proud drivers congregate to kick tires and have a cup of coffee. There is something for everyone to enjoy; classics. And it’s all free, minus the coffee of course.

If you are located in Southern California, or are visiting the area, you may want to make it a point to stop by. If you are from outside of the area, then park your-self right here, join the forum and experience the event via the Internet. Only people with classic cars are welcome and invited to participate. Exhaust fumes not included. This site is a place to revisit the cars that inspired us and see the ones we missed.

Remember, if you are in the area, stop by on a Saturday morning from 7:00am to 9:00am. There is lots of parking, but sometimes fills up fast! No speed bumps, 400 spaces for exhibit, a reserved area for motorcycles plus ample spectator parking. Then stop by the forum and share your stories, photos, experiences, and most importantly – your classic ride.”

I’ve been to C&C a few times and I’ve been a lurker here for a while. This thread bothers me for a few things.
1) Someone here made the point that it bothered them that C&C was being referred to as a “show.” More specifically, that it was being referred to as “their” show, “their” being the organizers. I believe that this is more than anything a bastardization of what C&C is really all about, even more so than all the “Macy’s” cars that show up every week. C&C is about meeting a variety of people and seeing a variety of cars and having fun. It’s not some catwalk, not some spectacle. The importance of nice cars is paramount sure but even more important is that there are a wide variety of people there to enjoy the cars.
2) People here who say they don’t understand why we don’t have 100% support for the show’s organizers. This is a forum for voicing opinions and naturally you are going to get people who are speaking out against the organizers, especially since C&C is, once again, not “their show” (or at least it shouldn’t be) but a meet of a variety of people with their cars. The people who come and show their cars every week should have a say how the event is run too because without them, there would be no event. Or “show.”
3) This sentiment has been voiced several times but what is C&C without late model exotic cars? As far as I can tell the VAST majority of people on this forum go to C&C because of the late model exotics, because of the new hotness. I mean, look at how many people were pumped for NSX Day. Taking a look at the pictures people like to take at C&C, a large majority are of later model vehicles. These are the vehicles people find more interesting. And though I enjoy classic cars and modern vehicles all the same, there are an equal amount of classic car owners who don’t appreciate newer model vehicles as there are newer model vehicle owners who appreciate older vehicles (probably more).

I totally agree about the S2K debacle and the rising amounts of frankly uninteresting vehicles that have been showing up to C&C recently. However, there are MILLIONS of better ways to keep them from showing up than to get rid of ALL 1978 and above vehicles. The old vehicles are interesting for sure but with this decision Cars and Coffee has been turned from an informal gathering of a variety of car enthusiasts to an elitist “show” for classic car collectors.

[Anonymous]

Here’s my perspective on things:

How does one deem what is and is not appropriate to attend a communal car gathering? Pre 1978 cars? There were quite an amount of crappy cars made in the 70s :nuts:

I attend Cars and Coffee for its diversity, and the show exposes individuals to things he or she may have never seen before.

I know my Mercedes on hydraulics does not appeal to all, but I guarantee to be one of the only (if not the only) car to attend with this unique suspension. Is my car not deemed acceptable because it’s too new of a vehicle, or because it’s the lowest end model of a brand? Maybe we should only let the higher end models of a marque attend.

I guarantee you you’ll find a half dozen almost identical 360s at the show, but how many cars do you see sitting on their wheel wells? Should we start turning away 360 owners after the 10th has arrived? Maybe some of us who live in the Newport area grow rather tired of seeing the same Ferraris one sees on his way to the grocery store…

My point is this: Acceptability is relative. By only allowing certain classes or certain genres, the mystique that C & C has now will most certainly disappear. Peace.

[pladmin]

This thread can go on for days, however I don’t think that there will be any new arguments presented that haven’t already been discussed. So instead of beating a dead horse this thread is now closed. Our position has been made clear. This needs no further discussion. Whether you like the new rules or not the decision has been made, and everyone including myself must deal with that. If you would like to continue this discussion please do so on other forums.

Sincerely,

Site administrators

[Author]

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